Should Rayappan Anthony Be Given A Christian Burial?
One of the subjects that I have purposely avoided and steered clear of since starting this blog has been topics related to religion. It does not take a genius to realize that any discussion pertaining to religious issues will not have a winner as all sides will remain firmly entrenched in their respective beliefs and opinion and the entire exercise would end up as a slanging match or worse between adversaries.
When it comes to religion I'm a firm proponent of 'to each his own.' Therefore when I was perusing Malaysia Today this morning and chanced upon this article taken from The Star, with the title "Allow Rayappan a Christian burial, says group," I decided that the time had come to at least have a rational discussion on that question. (If rational dialogue is at all possible.)
Two paragraphs from the above report are as follows:
With this being the situation is it not incumbent upon the government to put the matter to rest by applying to the courts for a judicial pronouncement that will satisfy all sides? Can the Syariah Court provide the confidence which a non-Muslim desperately needs to ensure that he gets a fair hearing and judgment? Would the civil court be a more suitable arena for all sides to be heard and any decision given be more acceptable? I have no answers. Do you?
Latest from the Syariah Court today (via TheSun update SMS) :
Rayappan body tussle case: The Shah Alam Syariah High Court today referred the case to the Syariah Appeal Court for a decision because it has no jurisdiction; the case is to be mentioned on Tuesday 12th December 2006.
SMS Update: Cabinet instructs Attorney General to look into A. Rayappan's religious status and to hand over the body to his family if proven he was a Christian.
When it comes to religion I'm a firm proponent of 'to each his own.' Therefore when I was perusing Malaysia Today this morning and chanced upon this article taken from The Star, with the title "Allow Rayappan a Christian burial, says group," I decided that the time had come to at least have a rational discussion on that question. (If rational dialogue is at all possible.)
Two paragraphs from the above report are as follows:
The relevant documents prepared by a lawyer and executed by the Commissioner of Oaths were submitted to the National Registration Department, which accepted the declaration and reinstated Rayappan’s religious status to Christianity.If this be the case, at least on paper it sounds logical that the deceased at the time of his death had a religion which he publicly professed and practiced i.e. Christianity, and that much was acknowledged by the National Registration Department issued MyKad. However there is one school of thought which emphatically says that entry into Islam is a 'one-way-ticket' and a death sentence is the only answer for apostates. Does this view override the provisions of the Constitution especially its controversial Article 11? Moreover there is no unanimity even among Islamic scholars regarding apostasy with each opposing group terming the other as "ignorant of the 'real' Islam."
He also said the MyKad of the deceased (issued in 2000) had the word “Christianity” printed below his name and any obstruction to his burial according to Christian rights would contravene Article 11 of the Constitution which guarantees the right of a person to profess and practice his faith, and in this particular case the right of the family to bury Rayappan according to his professed religion at the point of his death.
With this being the situation is it not incumbent upon the government to put the matter to rest by applying to the courts for a judicial pronouncement that will satisfy all sides? Can the Syariah Court provide the confidence which a non-Muslim desperately needs to ensure that he gets a fair hearing and judgment? Would the civil court be a more suitable arena for all sides to be heard and any decision given be more acceptable? I have no answers. Do you?
Latest from the Syariah Court today (via TheSun update SMS) :
Rayappan body tussle case: The Shah Alam Syariah High Court today referred the case to the Syariah Appeal Court for a decision because it has no jurisdiction; the case is to be mentioned on Tuesday 12th December 2006.
SMS Update: Cabinet instructs Attorney General to look into A. Rayappan's religious status and to hand over the body to his family if proven he was a Christian.
Labels: Religion.
posted by The Malaysian. at 12/06/2006 11:33:00 AM
15 Comments:
and if you ask me... he can have any kind of burial but what matters most is whats in his heart. If he was a Christian in his heart, he died a christian and has salvation.
Malaysia should just drop the pretense, shred the Constitution and adopt full-blown Islamic State.
Then they can proceed to place women under tents, ban automobiles in favor of camels, tear down our rainforests to make way for imported sand dunes, and make rape an offense punishable only if there were 4 male witnesses standing around "witnessing" while holding their ding dongs in their hand (but of course, this is theoretical, because after all, with women transformed into walking tents there should really be no rapes anymore).
Everybody who is born henceforth is automaticlly classified Muslim, and that will remove the problem of what type of burial ritual to be used at the time of death....they don't have to be "praciticing" Muslims either, after all JAIS/MAIS/and Muftis dont care about that, so long as they are "classified" officially as such.
true colours of Muslims, may Allah bless them all !
Only in Bodohland do you have such people - religious extremists who put on the cover of defender of the faith (JAIS/MAIS) - wtf... Religion is a personal matter. If the person has renounced Islam, then he/she will face GOD/Allah/Buddha on judgement to explain what he/she has done and would need to face whatever consequence(s) of renouncing Islam.
Does JAIS/MAIS fellas think they are Allah? They think they are perfect and doing Allah's work by the way they treat people and their departed loved ones?
These JAIS/MAIS fellas are not muslims and DON'T KNOW what the Quran tells them to do... I thought Islam was a religion of peace and compassion... What compassion? What peace? Only compulsion and coercion and force to tell others that Islam is a bully. Only when they meet another bully like Isreal and lost the fight, then these muslim extremists start crying, whining, and complaining about others bullying them. Treat others the way you want to be treated....
I hope one day these JAIS/MAIS punks get their come-uppance... Maybe one day, some Christian/Hindu/Buddhist groups will come and snatch the bodies of their loved ones and give them a burial according to other religion... that way they would get a taste of the medicine they are dishing out....
It is unfortunate that the rakyat does not really understand the whole issue with regards to apostasy. Thats why we have such comments as above. I dont know who you people are and what you are, how old etcetc. but what you commented reflected your ignorance.
Trying to be brief here. Islam in actual fact forbid apostasy. There is no compulsion in islam to embrace islam. Once you embrace islam you are bound by its laws.
In malaysia however, one can still argue for renouncement. BUT there is a set of proses and procedures which has to be followed and complied with.
In readings these comments which contained condemnation of certain organisations and the religion itself, I find them as being very unfortunate indeed. Unfortunate that there are still many who knows nothing but to ridicule and condemn only. JAIS and other religious groups /organisations are only doing/following what has been formulated and asked of them. nothing more and nothing less.
Its the process and the rules which have to be visited and made clear and without ambiguity. The Rakyat has to understand what embracing islam means and the Rakyat has to ensure that they know what is expected of them if they embrace islam or thier familly members embrace islam. If it is made compulsory by the law of the land that a convert has to go to the Shariah court to get the renouncement made official/accepted/legal, do it. Familly members must also do something to assist the concerned party about that requirement. Dont wait until the person dies!
In this case, did he do all what is expected based on existing process and rules/requirements?
One can argue about that process and rules, but until they are changed, THEY REMAIN to be the ones to follow! If you dont do it, dont let others get the blame and condemnation!
warrior2 - you stated that "Islam in actual fact forbid apostasy. There is no compulsion in islam to embrace islam. Once you embrace islam you are bound by its laws."
I'm interested to know where in the Quran does it state that the punishment for apostacy is to be meted out by man on this Earth? To my knowledge, faith, leaving faith or disregarding faith is for God alone to deal with.
Also, as far as the Quran is concerned, "There is no compulsion in religion". Period.
[Surah 2 (Al-Baqarah) : verse 256]
There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
The rest of your statement is definitely not based on the Holy book, but perhaps based on the so-called Syariah Laws (and depends on whose version of it), which in effect are man-made laws, of which some of it is based on the Quran.
And in Malaysia, to approach the Syariah court if one wishes to renounce Islam is almost a joke - it is tantamount to inviting criminal punishment on oneself (severity varying from state to state).
In my personal view, let the family have the body and inter it as they see fit - prolonging this tussle only adds to discontent, anguish, and yes, even injustice. Islam is (among many other things) is about behaving in just manner, not only towards Muslims, but towards all mankind.
Well, if indeed Islam is a religion of just behavior, what better time to demonstrate some of that justice, if not now?
And one other thing...
The Malaysian, you are correct: arguments about religion are zero-sum exercises. Everyone has their own dogma, and every dogma has its day...
I'm sorry to say this Mr Warrior2...For me the comments above by others were just more than a cry out loud emotions...How do you possibly call that ignorance..For me ,your commence didn't sound ignorance but arrogant..A person's comment is his school of thoughts..If you judge others by they way they produce their comments...mind you..how the rest of these people judge you..Of course as a person who doesn't mind about what others think of you, it doesn't matter...But get your fact tight and meaningful..Just don't 'hentam' others comment cause you think you are a rational person and all happening is the truth inside and out...
What do you mean by...
'In malaysia however, one can still argue for renouncement. BUT there is a set of proses and procedures which has to be followed and complied with.'
Is Malaysia a country you can argue for renouncement ,or the other countries do not allow renouncement...The Christian Prime Minister of Ghana married a Egyptian Muslim and they live happily practising their religion in their own way and so much more example's in other countries which allows more freedom in religion,mind you this countries are much more Islamic than Malaysia which by the way is a secular nation by constitution...
'If it is made compulsory by the law of the land that a convert has to go to the Shariah court to get the renouncement made official/accepted/legal, do it. Family members must also do something to assist the concerned party about that requirement. don't wait until the person dies!'
Are you joking...What is law of land...This is law of barbarians..If there's any possibility I'll meet a Martian,then there's a possibility of Syariah courts aprrove conversions...Do you know how many cases out there ,the family do not know the person has converted..In Rayappan's case..the guy has converted back to Christianity and did it in a legal way known to him..What do we expect more..For the guy to rise back on the seventh day and proclaim how he should be buried...
How do you feel if in another country, a Muslim is dragged by the officials and given a Christian burial if there's such provision in that nation's law of the land...
My advice is ,if you don't like the comments of others ,think over the comment,then shoot your bullets with comments counteracting them with concrete points with unduly respect and minced words..As you said...' I don't know who you people are and what you are, how old etc etc. ' so don't just throw words to person you don't know their pedigree...their age or their calibre...This is a civilized world...
My thought are with Mr.Rayappan's family and let's see what can the house of appeal do on this matter..
To warrior2
You are an idiot, yes you moron, what gives you the right to judge others if they were young or old or educated et cetera et cetera... ! First of all you bloody well think this world only revolves around islam and muslims.
Damn you ingrate, if not for the 'mamaks' of India you would probaly be preaching Hinduism, you idiot !because some Hindus, circa Parameswara's time that sex maniac thought embracing Islam would legally allow him 4 women to screw every time And dont tell me he converted for love of religion,moron, He was an Indon.
If you think we are ignorant I'll tell you this stupid warrior2, you are the classic example of an idiot... preaching only of what little you know in that shit head of yours... go take out a real book about religions and read.... but then again if it is in any other language but arabic you would go duhhhhh.... !
I suggest you log on to www.faithfreedom.com and educate yourself and your children.And stay out of this blog !kapishh?
a pissed-off malaysian.
Dear The Malaysian
Whether u like to talk abt religion or not, u can't avoid issues pertaining to it. It is just like politic. Some try to avoid it, but it is so close and concerning everyone. The government purposely make religion works for its end, the situation now is that government policies are so much attached to religion, it thus affects each and everyone, so, for now, we hv to voice out or we'll be overcome by voice from the iron hands.
How a body is to be buried is not the issue, it is why the Government allows such thing happen over and over, why can't one has his own will? Afterall, who r they who deter one's faith? If they really fear God, for God sake, let the dead be buried according to the will of the dead.
sigh....
Welcome to the Hotel Islamia.
You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.
To Mr.Warrior2..this is anon 6.11..I do agree that we are talking about apostasy,the existing syariah laws of Malaysia covering it and what Islam says of it...But do not forget the fact, we are also talking the effects and the consequences to others of these issues especially to the family of those converted and corpse-snatch-away-families... and I didn't say that you are condemning nor ridiculing other religions..the mere fact pointed out is the way you shoot your comments to other ,as if other bloggers are just some 5 year old kids scribblings..I do agree that there are some bloggers comment that is substandard...
Why then you have to play along rather than present the point of your refute with a subtle and concrete points rather than childish answers...
We here are just pouring out that the families affected are given their rights. Not ignoring the fact that Islam is a great religion as a whole but not all of the followers are..Islam preachers goodwill but the different things are practised by a sum of fanatics...Be just and be good to others if we expect the same thing from them...
too many emotional xenophobes.
none of you knew who was this rayappan guy.
no matter what was mr. rayyapan's faith, he is still a bag of fertiliser. nothing more.
don't act like you were old friends.
why is everyone scared of the Syariah law?? even to muslims in msia
the one above me is right... its the Sultan's job anyway to ensure everything is OK...
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